Can we use one L1 Model 1S for a 5-piece country / classic rock band

[dachshund]

Hello,
I'm here because my band needs to replace our PA system. We are a 5-piece country / classic rock band, guitar, keyboards, bass, drum kit, and a lead vocalist; a total of 4 vocal mics, and we typically mic the guitar and keyboards.

We play medium sized night clubs, usually not more than 300 people. Larger venues tend to provide a PA.

Can we use just one L1 model 1S with either the B1 or B2? If not, what are the limitations, and how do we determine how many we would need? We really only have the budget for one, and my first interest in the Bose was based on an assumption that one would be sufficient. Now I'm seeing pictures that indicate that some bands use upwards of one L1 per instrument. What am I missing? The literature makes it sound like one is good for 300 people.

Also, we intend to use a mixing board (mackie) and run a single output to the L1, especially if we mic any drums. One concern I have is that there's no way to EQ the Bose sound. Would we have any control over the sound via the mixer? My simple idea was that we'd get the sound we want with the mixer, which has 12 channels, and that would give us all the flexibility we need.

edit title: Previously "Basic Questions"

[ST - Pro]

Hi daschund,

Thank you for joining the Forum.

quote:

Originally posted by dachshund:
Hello,
I'm here because my band needs to replace our PA system. We are a 5-piece country / classic rock band, guitar, keyboards, bass, drum kit, and a lead vocalist; a total of 4 vocal mics, and we typically mic the guitar and keyboards.

I'm counting at least 6 microphones. Is that right?

• 4 vocals
  
• 1 acoustic guitar
  
• 1 keyboard(s) (not sure I understood this).
  

  quote:

  
  We play medium sized night clubs, usually not more than 300 people. Larger venues tend to provide a PA.
  
  Can we use just one L1 model 1S with either the B1 or B2? If not, what are the limitations, and how do we determine how many we would need?
  

  
  I think that for a night club with 300 people, you would be better served by a Model II with B2 and a Model 1S. And I would use at least two Model II systems instead of one.
  
  If you try to do everthing with one system there are some things to consider:
  
  
  • With that many microphones you may have an issue with feedback. The problem arises because as you add microphones to a system you lower your gain before feedback (references at the bottom of this post). If you split your microphones across multiple systems you raise your gain before feedback. The idea here is that each source is heard through only one L1® system.
    
    
  • Another potential issue is with monitoring. If you have 5 of you all trying to hear yourselves (pick yourself out of the mix) when all the sound is coming from one place, I think that would be a challenge.
    
    If you have more systems then the number of people playing through each one is lower, and it becomes easier to pick out individual voices in the mix. It's also easier to put people to hear themselves when they areclose to the system through which they are being amplified. (Again: The idea here is that each source is heard through only one L1® system).
    
  
  

  quote:

  
  We really only have the budget for one, and my first interest in the Bose was based on an assumption that one would be sufficient. Now I'm seeing pictures that indicate that some bands use upwards of one L1 per instrument. What am I missing? The literature makes it sound like one is good for 300 people.
  
  

  
  I think that it's entirely possible to have a Model 1S work for 300 people in the right venue, but that would be on the assumption that you are running fewer microphones and that the instruments were connected electronically. Except for quiet concert situations, I always use pickups in my guitars. It's just easier to manage.
  
  For what you are doing, I think that I'd be looking at two Model II systems as the minimum.
  
  

  quote:

  
  Also, we intend to use a mixing board (mackie) and run a single output to the L1, especially if we mic any drums. One concern I have is that there's no way to EQ the Bose sound. Would we have any control over the sound via the mixer? My simple idea was that we'd get the sound we want with the mixer, which has 12 channels, and that would give us all the flexibility we need.

  
  
  You would be using the L1® system as a powered loudspeaker and controlling all aspects of the tone and volume from the Mackie mixer.
  
  For more background about the systems please check out:
  
  The L1® Approach and the History of Amplification
  
  And for more detail about feedback as I mentioned above see:
  Microphone Feedback.
  
  Does that help?

[Oldghm]

quote:

Originally posted by dachshund:

Can we use just one L1 model 1S with either the B1 or B2? If not, what are the limitations, and how do we determine how many we would need? We really only have the budget for one, and my first interest in the Bose was based on an assumption that one would be sufficient. Now I'm seeing pictures that indicate that some bands use upwards of one L1 per instrument. What am I missing? The literature makes it sound like one is good for 300 people.

Hi dachshund,

ST has pretty much covered your questions, and I would agree that 2 Model IIs would probably be the minimum for your intended use. I would just like to add a comment on the portion quoted above.

When the L1's were first introduced nine years ago they were advertised and sold as being a "personal amplification system", one per musician. As time moved on they were found to be good at many things in the music and speaking world and their use went far beyond the one per person ideal.

When the L1S was introduced it marked the first time, to my knowledge, that Bose had actually used the term PA in advertising. The original L1S ads show three band members with a Model L1S behind them and the text suggests that the L1S can be shared. The ads include a diagram that depicts two L1's and four band members even though the picture only shows one L1S. In the text of the ad "single portable system" is high lighted and is referring to the fact that it can provide sound for the audience as well as monitor for the band, then the copy goes on to read "With as few as two systems behind the band...."

I think the ad could be misleading, whether or not it was intended to be. Even now looking back on it, the highlighted text stands out and implies a different meaning than when one reads the complete text of the ad.

I think the suggested max audience size of 300 and the picture, that in my mind suggests three people using one L1S, come from two different schools of thought. Used one per person, (vocal and instrument) they will cover 300 people in all but the most demanding situations. When they are shared, the effective coverage begins to come down a bit with each additional input.

I continue to be disappointed that no one from Bose has ever visited this site and talked about the change in direction of the advertising following the L1S introduction. No one has ever talked about the pre release testing of the L1S or their results using them as a PA system for small bands.

To my knowledge we have not had a review by any band or small ensemble using two L1S's as a PA behind the band.

If you search for posts by Litesnsirens you will find some information about using two Model II's for a band. Maybe Litesnsirens will see this and offer his opinion here or direct you to a previous comment he has made.

All this information is still subjective. Some very loud playing bands wouldn't be happy even with an L1 for each member, while quieter bands might make do, or be quite happy with one or two units.

I don't think anyone here can make a definitive answer for you. Until you try one yourself, you just won't know if it will work or not.

All of the L1 systems represent a change in the live music dynamic. It takes less volume to cover a greater area. For some users that just never makes sense. The louder you are used to playing the more difficult the transition, from conventional equipment to the L1, will be.

I would encourage you to get at least one from Bose, or a dealer who allows 30 to 45 day no question return policy. Try it out, see for yourself what they are all about.

O..

Edit to correct name of contributor and to clarify my impression of the early L1S ads..

[jtr]

I play in a Classic Rock 4 piece( 4 Vocals) and if you don't mic anything but the vocals a L1 Model1 that I use is more than enough for rooms with 300+ people.You can get a Used L1 M1 with 1 or 2 b1 for the price of a new L1s and the L1 M1 has 2x the power check it out.

[ST - Pro]

Hi Everyone,

Here is the ad to which Oldghm referred above.

Premier Guitar Ad for L1® Model 1S





Click the picture to see it at Premier Guitar online.

[ST - Pro]

Hi Oldghm,

I was curious about peoples' impressions about the ad so I went back to the discussion that ensued when it first popped up. Saw an Ad for the New Bose L1 Model 1S (Premier Guitar magazine)

I'm not seeing anything there that suggests that people came away with the impression that there were three guys in a band sharing a Model 1S. I might have missed a post in that four page discussion - and if I did, I'm sorry.

The picture in the ad shows only one microphone and no back-line amps, so I suppose if one looked only at the picture and not the text or diagram below, then it could be taken that the only thing coming through the L1® was the microphone. But I don't think that most people would get that impression either.

I understand your concern about the highlighting, but I really don't detect anything even close to an attempt to misconstrue the concept. They actually spelled out in words "... With as few as two systems behind the band,..." and then drew a picture showing two.

[dachshund]

Thanks for responding. I can see that the model 2 with the b2 will give the most flexibility. I went to a Bose store and heard a demo. We only have 3 vocals right now, plus electric guitar (I use a tube amp), keyboards, bass, drum kit. The keyboard player can go direct, and I would mic my guitar. So right now that's 5. Or in some clubs I wouldn't mic my guitar.

Obviously we won't know until we try it, but the next question is how to add more instruments, if we add a 2nd guitar or mic the drums. Bose would say buy another one, but we can't afford that. So I'd want to add a mixing board, or that's what comes to mind.

And I feel like Bose is doing a slight bait and switch, where they advertise the larger unit as being good for 500 people, but the sales person kept saying "ideally you want at least 2 of these." With traditional equipment you have a rule of thumb in terms of wattage for a given venue.

[musicnmotion]

Hi dachshund,

In defense of Bose, their advertisement is pretty accurate, because their numbers are based on the fact that you are using the L1 systems as intended--that is (ideally) one L1 for each instrument/player. Once you diverge from the intended use and plug in multiple sources, then the numbers will inevitably change.

[Oldghm]

Hi ST,

Well I didn't intend to start a debate on the impact of advertising on the general public. I was just saying that I can understand why dachshund might come here confused by what he had seen, heard, and read about the L1 Model 1S.

Most of the contributors to the thread you mention are long time users and of those who are not long time users they were already familiar with the L1 and / or owners of some Model of L1.

You and I have several years of experience with the various L1 models. We do not see the ad in the same way others, not familiar with the L1, "might" see it.

I totally agree that the ad in it's entirety is clearly stated, but if one just glances at the highlighted text the potential is there for misunderstanding.

The picture is what it is, three musicians in front of 1 L1 Model 1S.

The big bold title says, PUT YOUR PA BEHIND YOU

Reading the title reinforces what the eyes have seen, one L1 Model 1S behind three musicians.

Below that in bold is single portable system, again, reinforcing what the eyes have seen.

You tell me, why would you highlight text? I think you highlight text to catch attention.

I am not suggesting that everyone (or most people) who sees the ad thinks that a single portable system will work for three musicians. What I am suggesting is that if someone looked at the ad and came away with the idea that a single portable system would handle three musicians, or a band, it would be understandable based on the layout of the ad.

The term PA to most musicians suggest a system capable of handling multiple inputs, especially mics. We know that even in small venues, many bands with conventional equipment will mic every amp and drum on stage along with the vocals.

I am not accusing Bose of an "attempt to misconstrue the concept", and I don't think my previous post suggests that. I am merely stating that I believe the ad could be misleading and partially responsible for questions like those posed by dachshund.

O..

[Deon]

Hi Oldghm

I read the ad in the context of the layout sketch. Maybe I am subconsciously influenced by experience, but my mind tries to reconcile the photo and sketch, coming to the conclusion that the photograph only shows part of the stage (the other L1 out of view).

To dachshund, if you are able to convince your dealer to try before buying, that might allow you to experience the setup at an actual gig.

Goodluck